Journal Three - 1/10/08

The Debate Arguments-
Upon the return to Zosima's office Alyosh and Zosima find Miusov, and Ivan debating over Ivan's article about ecclesiastical courts. Miusov, who fancies himself a politician of some sort, argues along with the rest but they toss his argument aside and ignore him.

Ivan:
Ivan states in his argument that church and state should be one, they should not be separated. The church should be involved with the state so that it may administer laws to the land, also the clerical courts, which Ivan's article speaks of, would be in charge of the judicial side of this. Ivan argues that if the courts were clerical courts then less crime would occur. He states that less crime would occur if clerical courts were implemented because people would not be committing a crime against the state but also God.

Miusov:
Miusov disagrees with Ivan arguing that if they were to follow things his way it would be Ultramontanism. Miusov uses this term to refer to the pope in Rome which is over the mountains from Russia. Also, this would give the pope complete power. However, the others ignore his argument.

Zosima:
Zosima agrees with Ivan. He says the church chooses not to become involved with the state. He also says that the biggest driving force is one conscience and that it is conscience that will push people to repent.